This meshes with what I've observed, too...
I'm not sure which is the bigger issue, Don's devel style versus Linux
devel style, or use of kernel APIs, but both I think cut to the core of
the differences in this situation.
> It is worth putting on the record that Don has done a lot for the Linux
> effort, a huge amount, in fact. Without Don, Linux would be dramatically
> less far along than it is. I've been here since before it had networking
> and it really took off when Don started writing drivers.
I give him a lot of credit too, though it's often in the way of trying
to apply lessons learned from him to current net drivers and such.
> It's also pointing out that I think he's right about the networking
> regressions, suspend/resume on laptops used to work and now the network
> is almost always hosed after I do that.
suspend/resume in Linux has always been a hack, and will continue to be
until the 2.5.x sysfs/device model is fully fleshed out. Specifically
for 2.4.x, let me know if your net driver doesn't suspend/resume
correctly. The cases I've tested work fine. Make sure your distro is
properly calling the /sbin/hotplug agent when suspend/resume occurs though.
> I doubt that either side is likely to change their view. But, the real
> point is how to we get Don's brain engaged on the kernel networking
> drivers? A few thoughts:
>
> a) Don is going to have to accept that the Linux kernel approach is
> the way it is. Sitting on the sidelines and whining is not going
> to change how the kernel is developed. Either get with the
> program or not, but don't sit there and complain but refuse
> to work the way the rest of the people work.
indeed... central problem
> b) The kernel folks need to listen to Don more. Draw him into the
> conversations about interface changes, try and extract the
> knowledge he has, it's worth it. Not doing so just means you
> are wasting time.
I try to do this, and I can point to many specific instances in the past
when he's been very helpful.
I would love to get Don more involved in interface discussions though...
typically where he pops up [where I see him] is more in the area of
hardware experience and knowledge than interface discussions.
> c) Don needs to kill those mailing lists he maintains or merge them
> with the appropriate kernel lists. That is a big part of the
> problem, the interesting stuff seems to be happening over in
> Don's part of the world and the mainstream kernel team isn't
> aware of it.
This is really a matter of getting his driver changes into the kernel,
too... Some mailing list users [not me] would probably complain about
seeing support traffic for drivers that are not in the kernel.
> d) Beer. More beer. Much more beer and some face time. If there
> is a tech conference coming up, I think we should get Don to
> come and give him the first lifetime achievement award for
> Linux kernel development. Then shove him and the other network
> hackers into a room with a keg and not let them out until they
> are smiling. BitMover will kick in some money towards this if
> needed.
mmmmmmm, beer :)
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